Revision & Enforcement
November 12th 2008 07:01
RE: Orble Terms & Conditions
Suggestion - Open For Discussion
This seems to be the only guideline in the Terms & Conditions that users have to advise them on what kind of conduct is expected.
Considering Orble is marketed as a "networking" site for where writers are encouraged to interact with each other to gain Karma Points, many users agree that it would be in the best interests of the community to specifically outline what constitutes "offensive".
I suggest that a comprehensive Code Of Conduct should be created.
Feedback I have had directly an indirectly from others users includes the following:
1) Appropriate Post Titles
There is a need to define the language that is unacceptable, including swearing, racism, sexism. homophobia, and religious intolerance. It has also been suggested that referring to other writers by name for the purposes of being derogatory should be banned.
2) Appropriate Content
There seems to be an unofficial rule that posts insulting other users are removed from the homepage and/or deleted. The what, when, how, why and where of this "rule" remains a mystery to most users and it is enforced inconsistantly. On a broader scale it could be useful to outline what (if anything) legally constitutes "hate speech".
3) Appropriate Display Images
This is an issue that generates regular complaints and discussion but it is not well defined. Regarding nudity and violence, users have no guidance as to the limits of what is offensive. Rather than address the issue on a reactive basis - which can be time consuming and inefficient - a better and more proactive approach would be to definitively state which images are considered "Family Friendly", which images must be labelled "Mature", and which images are completely unacceptable.
Varying degrees may be (a) sexually suggestive, (b) war images, (c) depicting death or torture, (d) full frontal nudity, (e) close up genitals and breasts, (f) implied or real violence, (g) medical and blood, (h) degrading women or minorities, (i) depicting rape or bondage, (j) animal cruelty, (k) child abuse, (h) cartoons or banners spelling out offensive words or depicting any of the above.
These are just suggestions, many of these examples may be considered perfectly acceptable for homepage. A guideline would simply state what is and is not appropriate for general exhinition and access.
4) Complaints Process
If an image, title, or content is flagged for non-compliance with the Code Of Conduct there should be a timely and constistant procedure to lodge a complaint. The time to process a complaint should be specified and adhered to by admin. The matter should be addressed and the complainant should be responded to in a specified amount of time. If a post is deemed to not comply, the poster should be notified with an explanation so they know how to avoid making the mistake in future.
5) Consequences
The consequences for repeatedly breaching the Code Of Conduct should be specifically stated in plain language and upheld consistantly. One suggestion is a three strikes warning system, another suggestion is to deduct Karma Points.
This list of suggested content for a new Code Of Conduct or a revised Terms & Conditions is by no means comprehensive. It is intended as a first step in a brain-storming session. I encourage all users to contribute their thoughts as it is something that is brought up frequently on the site.
Suggestion - Open For Discussion
You will not post offensive material in your blogs. This may include but is not limited to racist or pornographic material. We retain the right to alter or delete material on any Orble blog without notice if it is deemed offensive or for any other reason.
This seems to be the only guideline in the Terms & Conditions that users have to advise them on what kind of conduct is expected.
Considering Orble is marketed as a "networking" site for where writers are encouraged to interact with each other to gain Karma Points, many users agree that it would be in the best interests of the community to specifically outline what constitutes "offensive".
I suggest that a comprehensive Code Of Conduct should be created.
Feedback I have had directly an indirectly from others users includes the following:
1) Appropriate Post Titles
There is a need to define the language that is unacceptable, including swearing, racism, sexism. homophobia, and religious intolerance. It has also been suggested that referring to other writers by name for the purposes of being derogatory should be banned.
2) Appropriate Content
There seems to be an unofficial rule that posts insulting other users are removed from the homepage and/or deleted. The what, when, how, why and where of this "rule" remains a mystery to most users and it is enforced inconsistantly. On a broader scale it could be useful to outline what (if anything) legally constitutes "hate speech".
3) Appropriate Display Images
This is an issue that generates regular complaints and discussion but it is not well defined. Regarding nudity and violence, users have no guidance as to the limits of what is offensive. Rather than address the issue on a reactive basis - which can be time consuming and inefficient - a better and more proactive approach would be to definitively state which images are considered "Family Friendly", which images must be labelled "Mature", and which images are completely unacceptable.
Varying degrees may be (a) sexually suggestive, (b) war images, (c) depicting death or torture, (d) full frontal nudity, (e) close up genitals and breasts, (f) implied or real violence, (g) medical and blood, (h) degrading women or minorities, (i) depicting rape or bondage, (j) animal cruelty, (k) child abuse, (h) cartoons or banners spelling out offensive words or depicting any of the above.
These are just suggestions, many of these examples may be considered perfectly acceptable for homepage. A guideline would simply state what is and is not appropriate for general exhinition and access.
4) Complaints Process
If an image, title, or content is flagged for non-compliance with the Code Of Conduct there should be a timely and constistant procedure to lodge a complaint. The time to process a complaint should be specified and adhered to by admin. The matter should be addressed and the complainant should be responded to in a specified amount of time. If a post is deemed to not comply, the poster should be notified with an explanation so they know how to avoid making the mistake in future.
5) Consequences
The consequences for repeatedly breaching the Code Of Conduct should be specifically stated in plain language and upheld consistantly. One suggestion is a three strikes warning system, another suggestion is to deduct Karma Points.
This list of suggested content for a new Code Of Conduct or a revised Terms & Conditions is by no means comprehensive. It is intended as a first step in a brain-storming session. I encourage all users to contribute their thoughts as it is something that is brought up frequently on the site.
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Comment by alt_ed
Alted Opinion
ArtCombat
The Inner Saintdom
Even though the implementation of your above suggestions would probably be of a hindrance to me, I can understand the importance of clearly outlining what is expected of users on the Orble network.
There needs to be far more interaction, rather than reaction between bloggers and Orble admin as well. A level of professionalism needs to be maintained whereby the staff of Orble preserve a unemotional authority and foster improved channels of communication between themselves and bloggers to air any grievances.
I to concur that at present there seems to be many inconstancies regarding the moderation of posts, and this can lead to people feeling victimised.
I hope admin take the time to seriously consider the events of the past few weeks which stand as example as to why these changes are needed forthwith.
Comment by alt_ed
Alted Opinion
ArtCombat
The Inner Saintdom
Certainly Morgan, some clarification on this matter is well overdue.
Comment by Janet Collins
Acceptable Etiquette
The Social Critic
Janet Collins Blog
Your idea for this is a good one. You have covered many of the points that I think a lot of Orble members must be asking at the moment.
Something that may offend me may not offend most others and visa versa but I have certainly seen standards slip of late. When all Orblers are vying for attention this is bound to happen.
Your suggested Code of Conduct is very clear and comprehensive. Yes, it should cover title, display images and content but the guidelines, as you point out, need to be clearly defined.
I would like to second Morgan's suggestion for a revised Code of Conduct including the complaints process and consequences for breaching this code.
Janet
Comment by Dianna G
I Wish This Was 42
Fictional Worlds
When I joined Orble over a year ago we did not have this problem-at all.
It seems like since the summer things have been going somewhat downhill in terms of content, and certain... debates, shall I call them... have been made into large issues which have blown up from one post to sixteen.
People are always eager to offend each other; I for one would like to see it stop here on Orble, as the biggest reason I keep blogging here is the community.
I think this is a great idea.
~Dianna
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I don't personally have a problem with swearing (unless it's directed at another writer) and whilst I balk at the myriad of images which exploit women's bodies in order to get a few hits, I've learned to live with them.
I was going to complain about the inconsistency regarding which posts get deleted and why but I see "Sandbox Politics" by Nevar the Raven has been deleted and for that I thank Orble admin.
Comment by Jim Stillman
Political Certainty
Thank you, Morgan, for bringing this up for discussion. I do not believe I have ever posted (or wished to post) any material that was questionable because of sexual content. I do confess that, while I deplore it, I have succumbed to the impulse to post adversely about the behavior of another writer. No excuses, but I am guilty.
It was wrong and this should be monitored. Since we cannot expect Admin or Jon to do it all, every one of us should send a personal message or post here and call the offending writer on it.
As far as I am concerned, Nevar’s post, Really Long Link and the various comments are perfect examples on how differing views should be handled.—with mutual respect. Those familiar with my site know that I have invited writers opposed to my points of view to join on the blog. So far, I haven’t been successful, but. . .
Anyway, thank you for your post.
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
I also agree with Jim Stillman that we not place all of the work on admin's shoulders.
Offensive material in my opinion is a very subjective thing. There are too many variables to make any sweeping decisions about what is deemed offensive these days.
To keep things fair, couldn't we agree to have a "Controversial top 10" featured on the home page, with no pics visible until one clicks on the post? (Sorry, but the term "adult" conjures up images of porno for me)
We could try the honor system at first. Those who ignore the decision are easy enough to bar from the site. A good rule of thumb would be "Would I want a child to see this (pic, article, etc.)?
Comment by Louie
Climate Red
randomthoughts
Phil's Wellness Tips
I have my own censorship policy, if i think someone s trying to be controversial or if they completely offend me I try my hardest not to click onto their site and if I am already in I certainly try not to comment, I take the view that hits and clicks are gold in their world and they don't deserve my words!!!!! mind you sometimes i fall off the wagon and let rip.
I hope you succeed it would be nice not to feel like crap for bring gay on a daily basis, considering Orble is about the only place in my life where people actually seem to care or feel the need to point out my short comings to me, hell even my parents are cool because they love me and I am still me!!!!!!!
Unfortunately the nature of anonymity dictates people behave 10 times worse online than they would in front of friends and family, hell I bet some of the homophobes on here have gay friends they love!!!!!!!!
Comment by Randy Inman
Waxing Political
Football Dogz
NCstuff
The Right Side
Comment by Doug Pollard
Current Affairs
Rainbow Reporter
I'm very nervous about the idea of censoring what people say. I know some people on here can be dreadful hysterical bullies, trying to dictate what you should or shouldn't say according to their personal political viewpoints, and some of them are infantile enough to resort to name-calling and smears.
But I would rather have people's opinions, however insulting/annoying/misguided/ hurtful etc., out in the open, rather than buried. Buried things have a habit of growing and spreading in the dark: I prefer the antiseptic of sunlight. We shouldn't need to wrap ourselves in cotton wool, and we shouldn't be writing with a self-censor sittting on our shoulders, either.
And in line with that, one thing I would change - make it impossible to leave those cowardly anonymous comments. If people want to participate in the debate - which is what blogging is all about - then they should stand behind their ideas, however vile I may find them.
Comment by Mister Smith
MRS SMITH
READ THIS
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I don't have a problem with swearing. I think that if people want to make racist or sexist comments they are entitled to do do so. Let others respond to that. Agree that anonymous responses should not be allowed
I think that Orble writers should be allowed to reference other Orble writers re: the subject on which they have posted. After all, this forum is for the purpose of expression of opinion and communication and the most heated arguments are often the most interesting.
However, I believe that name-calling should never be allowed. This is where disagreement degenerates into insult and any debate simply loses its way. Telling someone that they made a stupid comment is not the same as calling that person 'stupid'
I haven't seen any offensive images so far but would not like to see anything pornographic (by that I mean graphic sexual - not breasts, buttocks or dildos), which I believe would attract the wrong sort of traffic anyway.
Good idea to have a complaints process and I agree that there must be consequences of breaching the code (otherwise, what's the point).
If the censorship only relates to 'extreme' behaviour or images the consequences of consistent breaching should be a ban.
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
The very reason these rules have not been tightened is because of what we have all basically stated, that 'offensive' cannot be defined on a site this large. I adore porn and dont find it offensive in the slightest. Controversial subjects are exactly what I am here to discuss, because on the web you can find people with a variety of ideas and upbringings, more so than in life.
Probably the only thing I would mark as offensive would be animal cruelty, thats one opinion. All the rest, homophobia, rape, torture, war, religion....Have at those. I do think however some people are deliberately offensive in their posting of these topics.
Many moons ago we did have this discussion...I think it was Jon who said (im not sure who it actually was so sorry Jon if it wasnt you) "If you wouldnt like your granny to read it, it is mature content"
I disagree that anything marked mature content gets no coverage. Im still iffy on the issue of posting funny things that happen on studs during breeding season - its a hilarious, suggestive subject, but it will probably be 'offensive' to a lot of people, and just plain funny to others. So I dont post it.
If I want to swear, I never do it in a post title. I swear as much as I like in the body of the post but if its more than a few words I mark it mature....Not to protect the kiddies who swear like sailors at school, its to protect the innocence of their poor niave parents.
Like Doug Im scared that more rules, more regulations will degrade into 1984 style policing...I dont think Orble actually has the manpower in its admin to enforce to that level anyway, and a post with an offensive picture or title will not be touched by admin unless it actually hits the most popular list. So out of sight out of mind I guess.
I have always censored myself, if I want porn or to write erotica, I do it elsewhere. I just dont think its what orble is for, as this is a very wide forum, so I always stand by the one and only rule that meant anything to me from the Catholic Religion.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you
Thankyou for this post Morgan, and thankyou for putting it here in the writers forum.
Comment by Cheryl J
Rhythmatism
Zentertainment
Budget Centsability
Whilst I agree that what views on what people consider offensive differ so it is somewhat hard to please everyone, I think there has to be some kind of line drawn and some sort of penalty when those lines are constistently crossed.
I have a huge problem with writers on here using another writer's name in their post title in whatever context. If you have a problem with a writer take it up with them on their blog. I think that should be the first thing to go.
Alt_ed, you mentioned that an image of yours was removed even though it was in the body of your post and not on the title page. I think the reason it was considered offensive was because the title of that post was targeting another writer and in that context I agree with the decision to remove it.
Nevar, please don't blame Ruby for having your post removed, I was the one that complained to have it taken down as I thought it offensive. I have also done the same thing when you have been the target of something vicious and personal as I have when I have seen the same thing directed toward any other writer. I have been very much enjoying commenting on your post that Jim has linked to and it shows that people can discuss things they disagree about without animosity and name calling.
I also agree with the suggestion of having a list of controversial posts without any image being present on the homepage. I feel that idea is a good one.
Although many of us use pictures to attract readers that some people may find distasteful the family friendly filter is one of the better ways of combatting this. I feel that semi nudity and provocotive images are fine. Once you get into pictures of a truly sexual nature and the depiction of genitalia you are walking a thin line of pornography which is supposed to be a breach of the terms and conditions.
It think we need consistency when removing posts or reprimanding people so as we have a clearer idea of what is and is not acceptable.
The most important section of Morgan's post, in my opinion, is the development of a formal complaints process which is addressed within a certain timeframe. Many people may complain about things that have not actually crossed any lines but each complaint should at least be addressed quickly to decide if they have any merit and if so be able to dealt with accordingly and quickly.
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
Raven.
And, BTRW, I never thought for a moment that Ruby had it deleted, and she was correct to say that it was in poor taste.
This effort has been tried before, and clarity was never to be had. Parameters were determined when we were banned, post deleted or moved.
But it's good to see a concerted effort being made to have the boundaries clearly drawn. It'll be interesting to see if there's a satisfactory conclusion to this micro drama.
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
Once upon a time two people had a child. How they had a child or what their beliefs were is not known.
What was known (inasmuch as things can be known) is that both of these two people wanted to protect their child from things they both considered too adult for the child. As you would expect.
Then it was discovered that both of these two people were considered children by other people who considered themselves adults. The two people considered the adults childish.
Eventually (extreme Christopher Walken voiceover), a watch was discovered up someone's arse.
And the moral to this story, children? There is a time and a place for everything. Tune in next week for my next fairy story. Aesops fable about the ass.
Comment by Cheryl J
Rhythmatism
Zentertainment
Budget Centsability
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
Take that! Whoever you are.
Good onya Cheryl!
There's far too many people taking this issue off track.
The last thing we need on Orble is a debate about Orble where no comments by Orble are posted.
Comment by Anonymous
Firstly, and this does seem obvious, however, I will spell it out for your benefit:If your name is not Doug Pollard, then you have no reason to respond FOR Doug Pollard!
Secondly, and once again I thought this was obvious, my comment was made in jest, a light hearted response to Doug's valid contribution on this post... have you read it Cheryl J? (here it comes again) OBVIOUSLY NOT!
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
Good onya!
I'm on everyone's side on this one.
Take that Cheryl!
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
Did Someone start this?
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
when i say "hate speech" i mean real expressed hatred, not just thought
ill just pick out some extreme and fictional examples to make a point
would any of these be acceptable titles?
"Fags are filthy animals who deserve to die"
"Racial cross-breeding produces ugly children"
"alt_ed is a f*cked up dyke n*gger"
you know, something along those lines
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
"People who don't believe in the Bible are filthy?"
Or,
"Women who are raped and have an abortion are worse than the rapist who got them pregnant?"
Truth be told, I think those are really good ones. And they are not fictional.
Comment by Mister Smith
MRS SMITH
READ THIS
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Just answering quickly before I go back to some urgent tasks ... The examples you just gave are outrageous but allowing people to voice this sort of stuff gives others the opportunity of challenging these disturbed views - except for the one about alt ed. That was 'personal'
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
Let me express some thought hatred, but if anyone interprets it as real expressed hatred, and says it wasn't just thought itself per se and inidipsum, then I'm going to have a real ding-dong argument over the distinction between thought hatred and real expressed hatred in light of 1984. Because this is a real issue on Orble. Apparently you can think hateful thoughts but you can't express them. And therin lies the distinction between bloggers who hate but don't reveal their hate expressively in words, but just think hateful thoughts. Which is okay. It's okay to hate as long as it's just a thought, as long as you don't express that hateful thought in words, in a manner whereby you might be called to task for it. But it's okay to call others to task for their hateful expressed thoughts by using fictional examples. Why not quote the Bible?
So there, Doug!
Oh my goodness. How surprising that this post is heading towards its natural progression. Darwin was right.
Now I'm left wondering why I'm not taking this post seriously. Maybe I like the post but only in a like thought manner, and to admit that I like it expressly, would expose the distinction between like and expressed like, and since that is a positive emotion akin to love, it just wouldn't go down well?
Maybe I need some fictional examples of why I can't expressly say I like this post but can express my like for this post in a non expressive manner.
I'll be back when I've finished Googling Disney's Bambi?
Comment by Cheryl J
Rhythmatism
Zentertainment
Budget Centsability
Lady Dave, looking forward to fairy tales part deux. I do love your sense of fairness and equailty
Anon, I wasn't responding FOR Doug as he is quite capable in doing that himself. I was saying if you don't agree with something step up and say why and stop hiding behind the anon tag. Serious post, serious responses. Perhaps that's why your joke wasn't so obvious or clever as you thought.
Ruby, if they are real post titles then yes, they definitely deserve to be removed. I can see Doug's point of not wrapping ourselves in cotton wool but you really can't argue with the offensiveness of those titles and surely they must breach the Terms and Conditions in the very paragraph that Morgan quoted. Perhaps that's why we do need clarification as to what Orble does consider offensive.
At least this is getting a good dialogue going and shows that although many people disagree on censorship most of us are confused as to what the actual boundaries are.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I'm actually with Mr Smith on this. I do think that people should be able to express their views but likewise i think they should be prepared for others to question and challenge their views.
And they would do well to refrain from getting all narky when someone does inevitably question their views. Especially when their views are so damning.
I also think that self-censorship, actually asking yourself whether or not you should post something, is not a bad thing. I would rather see (or not see as it were), more of that than of enforced rules and regulations.
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
well i think theres a difference between thinking hateful thoughts and writing articles that are designed to incite hatred - i can see you dont agree with me
thanks for sharing your opinion
Comment by Jeff Musall
Secular Humanity
Comment by Mister Smith
MRS SMITH
READ THIS
SISTERS IN CRIME
Comment by Wilson Pon
Health 2 Know
Adventure Toes
Techno Stuffs
boxing sound
Business Rope
Fun Places 2 Travel
Honestly, I'm always thinking that a blog is supposed to be a great place to speak out our minds, but it must be in a tolerance and apprehensible ways, no with the hatred or racism manners!
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
It is a vexing issue, how to regulate and how to not over-regulate?
One good guide line I recommend is reading the Anti-Discrimination Act N.S.W. The Federal version applies mainly to employment situations.
Following is a basic paraphrased summary;
(extract to assist gays and discrimination against them).
The N.S.W. State Government website also supplies a copy of the full Act, so all people may see how it affects them. LINK NSW Gov
Of course, anybody with queries or worries, can consult the N.S.W. Council for Civil Liberties; (see link below)
LINK NSW Council Civil Liberties
In fairness to Orble, however, as we all like it, I would suggest this beforehand;
firstly;
anyone who has a real complaint to make it to Orble management first,
then, if not satisfied, check with the Council of Civil Liberties, but please do it ANONYMOUSLY, meaning, DO NOT IDENTIFY ORBLE, in case it attracts legal action and somehow we end up losing Orble (probably not but you never know)
I followed this course myself over another matter (libel which I found personally highly offensive and objectionable, it being directed slyly/indirectly at me and all gay people) but I let it drop in the end, as I didn't want to cause trouble.
If you are gay/lesbian and feel discriminated against, check this out;
NSW Law
In New South Wales, the Anti-Discrimination Act, 1977 makes it illegal to discriminate against men and women on the grounds of their actual or presumed
sexuality.
The form that discrimination takes against lesbians and gay men may be that
you are being treated unfairly, or that you are being harassed.
Vilification is defined as any act that could incite or encourage hatred, serious
contempt or severe ridicule. This action must happen publicly, not in private.
In NSW, it is now against the law to vilify anyone on the grounds of race or actual
or presumed homosexuality. Aboriginality is a question of race. These amendments
do not restrict anyone’s right to make fair comment. Most religious institutions
are exempt from the provisions of the Anti-Discrimination Act.
The Anti-Discrimination Board of NSW has the legal power to investigate
discrimination complaints. It also provides information and publications on antidiscrimination
laws.
More information can be found at the NSW Gay and Lesbian Rights Lobby website which can be found at LINK glrl.org.au
Of course there are many forms libel may take, not just anti-gay, and I have seen a lot of it on Orble.
For those who do not know, LIBEL, is the written form of defamation; that being:
(LAW): published statement damaging to person's reputation, publication of it: "portray with less than justice."
I can think of MANY people on Orble who should be extremely worried about the defamatory (libellous) written statements they have made, for it leaves the door wide open to be sued.
For instance;
even a generalised defamatory statement;
if a reader takes offence to it, but it had not been specifically directed at anyone in particular, then that person may seek recourse, for instance, under the Anti-Discrimination Act 1977 (N.S.W.), as ammended.
Referring to all type of defamation, then refer to the folllowing, Defamation Act 2005: follow link:
LINK Defamation Act
By the way, if you live in America, Britain, anywhere, even Victoria, you can be sued under N.S.W. law, if the person offended resides in that place. (A legal precedent, with global ramifications, set by Gutnick versus Dow Jones News Service): see article link here: LINK Gutnick case news
Think about it folks...
I can think of a couple of people right now who would loose a lot of dosh out of their hip pocket if such a complaint was made.
cheers and Happy...safe...Orbling...!!
fog
Comment by jon
Orble News
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Thanks for the suggestion. A few thoughts for the mill:
There is always going to be some level of judgement involved in determining if something should be removed or not and people will always complain that the judge is not consistent.
Having more rules may in fact just make things less clear and just give people more things to argue about.
Having said that one extra written rule I would consider is one that states that personal attacks are not allowed although then there is the problem of just what constitutes a personal attack.
My current view is that I know one when I see one and when I do they get deleted.
I would also consider a specific channel through which complaints can be made. A dedicated email address perhaps.
I very rarely remove (non-spam) posts or comments and usually only after I receive a complaint. I've probably removed less than 10 in nearly 3 years.
I try to do so in a timely manner, however I'm not always at my computer and have in fact been known to leave it for more than 24 hours especially on weekends.
If I started to intervene too much then I imagine I'd be accused of worse things than a "lack of leadership".
It's impossible for me to read every post, and it would cost more than Orble makes to employ someone to do so.
You need a thick skin to interact on the largely anonymous internet. If you are too easily offended then this is probably not the place for you.
Having said that there is a line that should not be crossed and I take complaints seriously. However exactly where the line should be is almost impossible to determine in individual cases and is even harder to put down in words.
Think about all the rules we have in "real" society to enable us to live together -- and we still need judges to interpret them and apply them to invidual cases.
It would be nice if everyone would simply argue the facts rather than attack each other. It's the most civil way to
debate a topic. I can only live in hope.
These arguments flair up now and again. It's been happening since Orble started and it's pretty much just part of being on the net. Everyone just needs to take a deep breath, relax, and get back to debating the issues rather than attacking each other.
The vast majority of the serious problems on Orble in the past have been caused by people who are deliberately trying to get a reaction out of other bloggers for kicks. Just ignore them if you can.
Comment by Janet Collins
Acceptable Etiquette
The Social Critic
Janet Collins Blog
While I can understand Jon's comments about it being the nature of the internet itself, this type of blogging will do more harm than good to Orble in general. It may get heated response from other Orblers, but I dare say not much from anywhere else. Outside of Orble, does anyone really think anyone cares, let alone that they probably don't know what anyone is really on about anyway?
Orble should be a site worth visiting. Once it isn't, it isn't. And that affects everyone.
Perhaps the US election stirred up a little more than could have been expected and things now will simmer down naturally or is it hopefully?
If nothing happens with this, at least keep it civil everyone.
Comment by Cheryl J
Rhythmatism
Zentertainment
Budget Centsability
I would still really like a formal complaints procedure so that when people do feel the need to complain they have an avenue to do so.
Kleonaptra has also just written a great post on this forum called InFlammable. Between Morgan's suggestions, people's comments on here and the extremely good advice on Kleo's post maybe we can prevent the need for a formal code of conduct.
Janet is right, although there are some people on Orble purely for a little social interaction (and there is nothing at all wrong with that), the majority of us write things we hope people will come to read. Let's keep Orble a site people WANT to visit.
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
thanks for acknowleging these suggestions, i can appreciate what you are trying to say
i would estimate that theres less than 30 active writers on Orble who post with any frequency, yet over 10,000 have signed up and quickly disappeared
im suggesting that perhaps a lack of moderation contributes to this phenomena - from a business point of view, it seems a bit pointless to advertise the site and recruit for new writers if you allow a tribe of trolls to stomp around and scare them all off - surely you are barely even refreshing the numbers you are losing
it is not surprising that dedicating only one member of personnel to moderating content over the whole network during business hours has proved inadequate
this site encourages people to interact with each other through the Karma Points system, but then gives no guideline as to the behaviour that is expected of them
if Orble wants to maintain a "staff" of professional writers, it would be advisable to provide them with a professional work environment in which they can work in
Orble has a bunch of people volunteering to create content for the site, and all they ask in return is that they not be slandered in the process
thats probably why so many people leave
generally you will find people behave better when they know what is expected of them, and when you make them accountable for their actions
if you remove a picture and dont tell the person why they will just keep doing it
if you want proof of this visit the homepage to see the Sandbox Politics post you removed has simply been re-posted, Nevar learned absolutely nothing from that experience, he has absolutely no idea what you expect of him
im sure alt_ed will have another moose anus up before the day it out, and David will whip out a few more vaginas
its your call, but if i were you i would rather warn people once before they do it, rather than having to respond to a thousand complaints
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Spoonie (Triple M radio) is now talking about internet censorship. Last time we had this type of forum I argued heartily for no rules, no regulations, because it restrains all the best ideas.
Comment by alt_ed
Alted Opinion
ArtCombat
The Inner Saintdom
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
You've never met me.
I try not to judge people for anything, because Im not them. I wasnt raised in their environment or with their struggles, and if I was, maybe Id think just like them. Who knows? My point is judgements are being based on very little, and I dont hesistate to slander to a person's face, believe me, the physicality of it only encourages me, but I need to know enough about them to be able to be that rude.
But Im the resident NutJob. My very purpose is to not be taken seriously.
Comment by Lilla
From The Home Front
Enviro Warrior
Dream Herald
Esoteric Bookshop
Having more rules may in fact just make things less clear and just give people more things to argue about. I should think that a mature person could use the current TV and movie rating system to give a fairly accurate guideline of what constitutes Mature Content?
This post (so far) sounds to me, like a bunch of children who cant trust themselves to judge when nudity is offensive and when it is PG!!! Or when it is safe to push the delete button if someone is in your face on your post. It sounds like asking the adults of the kindergarten to inforce more Orwellian rules, why? I recently had a most offensive swearing person offend me and I deleted him and then answered him, but without having to be offended... and they wernt the first either as I have encountered religious intolerance everywhere. People will always have different views, just ask Ahmed.
What is your problem Morgan?
You are eloquent enough to handle anyone on your post verbally, certainly eloquent enough to garner popularity and friendships, what is the sudden worry about someone coming onto your blog to offend you unless you have provoked them? Or are you wanting to take your posts to a more mature level without offending others, in which case I cannot understand why you cannot be responsible for marking your posts Mature Content yourself, like everyone else on orble?
Spomeone once told me that you cant teach morons, and it is accurate. You cannot make people like homosexuals, any mnore than I can convince people to envisage a cahs free society!
I mean this is ludicrous, its like saying this and this person disagrees with my opinion and now I need someone to come in here make them see it my way, because we cant agree. I mean MOVE ON, find others who do agree with you (as you have) and have a party (as you do)... why try and make us all suffer your fates and enemies?
People have different opinions and making another 100 rules wont change that!
Louie is right, if somethings looks offensive, I don’t click on their site.
I think Orble Admin do a good enough job of censoring what goes on, in enough time to warn people of pending smuttiness, keeping it fairly clean and on target, if it is getting out of hand. I think Jons suggestion of a dedicated email address for complaints valid enough and offer my support of it. As I do Jons words;
I am really grappling with, and trying to understand where this is coming from, (other than perhaps too much coffee?) .. and what it is you think 100 more rules will achieve? I find it a little offensive as a fully mature adult to think I need a baby sitter to handle any hate mail I may get from time to time in response to an opinion of mine that may have gotten up someones nose. Or the fact that my opion doesnt appeal to whomevers site I left it on (liek this one). You move one, we are not this way inclined, or that way. Forums are about learning from our differences through communial exchange of ideas and opinions. As Kleo said, its why I come here too.
I do not agree with more rules, arguing about orble blogs, or the current wave of pettiness that has reared its ugly head to cause the rampant *join my cubby or get kicked off* type bullying that is going on here and there... I left school many, many years ago and find this insulting to my intelligence, really. I know pornography and racism when I see it, and if I do (or Orble Admin does) it is restricted enough for me.
Sorry for the bumbling wordage but I am tired from a days REAL work, and find this all very childish, and wanted my opinon known, which is why I posted it.
Lilla ...
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
You are eloquent enough to handle anyone on your post verbally, certainly eloquent enough to garner popularity and friendships, what is the sudden worry about someone coming onto your blog to offend you unless you have provoked them? Or are you wanting to take your posts to a more mature level without offending others, in which case I cannot understand why you cannot be responsible for marking your posts Mature Content yourself, like everyone else on orble?
Lilla, people rarely come to your blog to insult you, they write posts on their own blog slandering you and there is currently no avenue to prevent this . . . when slagging you off sits in the popular post list for four days in a row you too may begin to wonder where the consistancy is . . . it is happening with increasing frequency to a huge range of users
i am bringing this to Jon's attention because the lack of moderation is causing people to act more and more insane and anti-social, pushing the boudaries, and it will just continue to escalate
it seems to me that self-regulation just leads to vilification and libel, well why not if theres absolutely no consequences . . . there currently arent any rules at all, im not sugesting there be 100 rules, but i think 3 or 4 wouldnt hurt, the Terms & Conditions are seriously lacking
the process of labelling posts "Mature" or removing them is completely unexplained and applied inconsistantly . . . personally i dont care about nudity or sexual content at all, but some people do, im questioning why certain posts are being taken down, its just asking for a bit of transparency in the process
i wanted to get a broad range of opinions, so thank you for taking the time to contribute
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
Is there enough room on Orble for two nut jobs, or should we meet at high noon, HAHAhahahahahaha!!!!!
This is getting silly. More rules made means more rules to break.
How about self-regulation on both ends, like I suggested before? If I say the word "shit" or post a picture of violence/nudity, etc. I promise to classify it as "controversial". After that, the onus is on the reader to know when to stop reading and move on.
I just don't like using the "adult content" classification because 1) It doesn't get Front Page coverage and 2) Because "adult" still sounds like porno to me and I don't want my post skipped over because I said "shit" in it.
P.S.--Er, I mean said the WORD "shit" in it, not wrote shit. I can write shit without ever saying the word "shit", so I just wanted to clarify that...; )
Comment by Doug Pollard
Current Affairs
Rainbow Reporter
I've experienced this personally, with a reporter from A Major National Newspaper telling me he would write a story favourably if I co-operated with him and unfavourably if I refused (I'm volunteer PR manager for a couple of organisations).
One thing seems very clear from the responses here - some people aren't as funny as they think they are. It's a very rare writer who can be truly funny in print, and I've yet to find one on Orble.
It is not funny to insult someone and then turn round and say, "Oh, don't you get it? It was a joke? Lighten up." That's just an excuse.
Don't insult people - period - even in what you think is 'fun'. You probably don't have the skill to make it work in print.
Insult whatever else you like - politics, religion, sexuality etc. - I want to know what you really think. Hate-speech rules obscure hate - I prefer it out in the open so I can deal with it.
But lay off the individuals. I'm all for robust debate and I hate posts with a mealy mouthed politically correct veneer on their hate.
I don't like or use the adult content tag because one persons adult content is someone elses mature discussion, and kids are not as innocent as their parents think. Plus see my comments re censorship above.
And I don't turn off the anonymous comments because I want to know what people think - but I would prefer it if non-Orblers could only leave comments if they provided a valid email, and Orblers couldn't comment anonymously. Perhaps these are things Jon could look at.
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
Odd how the fox is crying foul about the occupants of the coop; you can't avoid chicken poo when you wander through the coop doing the predatory things a fox does.
I don't need hall monitors to report or tattle when I misbehave, I am fully aware of my actions and my limitations; my trigger gets tripped when I find references to me all over this site without the courtesy of notifying me, even when I've been GONE for months. What does it take for some Orbler's to get over it .
It reminds me of annoying ankle nipping, leg humping Chihuahua's and their abhorrent behavior.
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
I meet you at high noon! We battle South Park style - that episode where cartman pretends to have psychic powers and ends up 'battling' with the other psychics....*Puts fingertips to temples* "Peow peow PEOW!"
I just realized, we have a great example here of how orble climate can change....David and I once chased each other from one side of orble to the other, both barrels blazing, desperate to wound the other. Now we discuss and flirt and analyse, critisize and construct. Who knows, in 6 months, we might all be holding hands....
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
Is this one of those water shed, kodak moments?
Comment by Mr Nice Guy
Pop Culturist
Pop Rock Factory
Ain't it grande!
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
thanks for clarifying
hi Nevar,
you dont like hall monitors?
i thought you were a hall monitor . . .
"Dear Jon & Orblers" by Nevar
i was trying to incorporate some of the views you had put forth in the post, and i notified you of this post on the forum, i dont know how much more included you want to be?
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
You are the absolute last person who should complaining about decorum and hate filled posts. How anyone can take you seriously after all this is way, way, way, beyond me.
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
Actually, I am glad that you did post this, this situation needed to come to a head and it has; what we seem to need now is some kind of remedy that will allow a measure of closure for as many as possible.
I for one am good and will bear in mind the efforts put forth by the group to postulate their concerns and solutions; hopefully it will result in modest changes. It would be unreasonable for leopards to change their spots when all that is required is civility.
Comment by damian
Urban Telegraph
Sports and All
The Squirter McGee Diaries
"Another 40 lashes please, Mistress X!"
(apologies if references to S&M offends anyone, but rest assured I offend myself far more than anyone else. There is barely a mirror left in the house...)
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
Fine, but in a nutshell,
there are LEGAL RAMIFICATIONS, LEGAL RESPONSIBILITIES, and LAWS governing discrimination on sexual preference, religion and race, and laws that apply in the law of LIBEL, regarding defamation, and the internet is not exempt from these laws!!!
If you defame someone here, or behave in a bigoted and reprehnsible way, stand warned, you can be sued by the person you offend, and sued successfully, even if you live in Russia, the South Pole, Australia or America!
One day, it will happen, I have no doubt.
fog
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
Were I mean enough to do that again, I am confident that I can have you nearly mindless with rage in a sentence or two; shall we go there or attempt to exist in peaceful co-existence?
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
im really uncertain of what you want . . . you have written about the lack of presence of a moderator yourself, and asked for the whole of Orble to register their opinion and for admin to take notice, yet when i raise similar concerns you take the opposite position
its almost as though you are just being argumentative and provocative for no reason at all
giving a reference to a post as an example is not gossip, it is showing one of the many incidents that inspired this discussion being opened on the Writers Forum
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
I'd write more, but I'm laughing too much.
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
thankyou for providing the legal information above, it is at the heart of the issue
ill draw particular attention to the passage on vilification just incase anyone missed it:
This action must happen publicly, not in private.
i really appreciate you stopping in and sharing the facts with everyone, it is probably an aspect of blogging that not everyone was aware of
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
Thanks for including religion regarding litigation:
I am assuming Christianity belongs to the list of religions? There seems to be quite a litigious case building for Christians on various Orble blogs.
Let's all litigate against each other and get everyone banned from Orble. That will solve the problem.
Does anyone else see the absurdity of all this?
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
I think you should label this post mature content.
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
thanks for taking up my invitation to participate in this discussion, it is good to hear from a christian point of view
religious intolerance should be addressed - christians, jews, muslims, buddhists, hindus, scientologists, raelians etc should all feel welcome to join the site - i dont think anyone here wants to be part of a site that approves of vilifying any religious group
there should be a process for people to report all grievances, both secular and religious, and people should be aware of what constitutes acceptable commentary and what crosses the line
Comment by Lilla
From The Home Front
Enviro Warrior
Dream Herald
Esoteric Bookshop
I am incredulous as I have seen you do this to many orblers Morgan, including comments about me too?
Where in the ral world doesnt that happen ... where everyone gets along and likes each other? Furthermore who in hell takes any notice of the types of people who gain pleasure from putting others down and forming little hate gangs against their sincerity?
As I said, it is exactly these posts that the mature person will avoid, they are as transparent as fly s*it to the person of reasoning and intelligence.
As I said, I dont do it, and that suits me conscience; and for those that do?
Good for you. Its water off a ducks mack... to quote a moot point in case (or is that mispelt Mute?).
It is a shame that you cannot realise that the best censorship against vilification is not to vote or comment on the post that is putting these religious, sexual minorty or whatever people down. Lets face it, we all need those votes for our egos or we wouldnt be here, would we... (look again), some of us are here to get genuine feedback for confidence to write better, form networks and maybe make friends along the way, thank God.
Lilla ...
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
i dont think ive ever shown anything but respect for you Lilla, i dont know what comments you are referring to
and im not trying to use my content as any sort of example, i am not a moderator on this site and i dont make the decisions as to what is taken down
if you had (or have) a problem with any of my content i would like you to have a fair and evenly-applied process of complaint, the same as everyone else
Comment by Mountain Fog
Infognito
QUOTE ME NO QUOTES!
The points being raised in general are still fair ones to make, one can criticise, even use humour, to oppose another's view, just not attack their right to exist, or denigrate their personal beliefs.
Quid quo pro, as you cleverly infer, applies to both sides of the fence; what if christians are attacked here and denigrated? Good point!
As for religions in general, not one is exempted, however, curiously and as oft said, the law is an ass, there is this embedded within the Anti-Discrimination Laws;
To paraphrase:
Most religious institutions
are exempt from the provisions of the Anti-Discrimination Act.
This indeed makes it plain that the law is an ass, and a hypocritical one, thanks to politicians who bow to the voter power of the 'big three' religions.
Fair play is what I think is being asked for on Orble, not a hermetically sealed world where one cannot utter a word that might differ from another's point of view, just how it is said.
Some people here relish in the cut and thrust of sarcastically whithering banter, others do not like this form of communication.
Maybe there should be a "bear pit", adults only, so anyone with a beef can challenge the other to come in and 'hav a go ya mug' as they say?
Dunno, it's all starting to exhaust me.
Actually, in recent times, I have been ridiculed and viciously attacked by a self professed 'intellectual superior' here, (I dared to question the accepted tenets, to think outside the box).
I was going to have a red hot go at this brittle intractable intellect, but, in the end I dismissed it all as a hurt ego reaction by an early dementia victim. Then the reaction of my persecutor seemed quite comical.
cheers
fog
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
Does anyone else see the absurdity of all this?
Yep.
Comment by Two Guys Sports
Baseball Slate
Blogging in America
Reviews R Us
Self-policing NEVER works. Want a good example, look at the banking and financial industry in the U.S. . . kill regulations and the system goes down in flames.
Hate speech should not be tolerated. Now this is not to say we can't have a discussion about religion, or sexual orientation - but when it moves from discussion to attack it crosses the line to hate and shouldn't be allowed. Hate also isn't limited to just religion or sexual orientation either.
Any personal attack within a post, shouldn't be allowed.
Any use of another person's name in a negative attacking manner (if even a sarcastic reposting of something) should not be allowed. the only time you should use someone elses name is in a positive manner, and in many cases with permission. Otherwise it should be disallowed, plain and simple.
It can't be too hard to add a simple feature that many sites implement - all you need is a tiny button put in the main coding of the site that would appear on EVERY post. The buttons says, "Click to report this post." It pulls up a page that gives you a text box to give a short description as to why you are reporting it. If it is a valid reason send the offender a warning email explaining what was wrong with it. If it is a blatant major breach of the rules don't bother with the warning, they lose their account. If it is a ridiculous complaint done just to complain about the person posting it then the complainer gets a warning. Three false complaints, you're gone.
Other sites have these safeguards built into their terms of service, in many cases for their own legal protection as Fog pointed out. I don't see why it can't be in use here. If not for the protection of the users than for Jon's own legal protection. I have seen posts commenting about breaching copyrights that would cause problems to Jon, what about breaching human rights?
These rules wouldn't take anything away from the majority of users on the site. It would only remove the idiocy. If you aren't guilty of the idiocy, it wouldn't really affect you.
Here is a link to the "Content TOS" from Blogger.com
Blogger.com Content TOS
Now what would be wrong with including some of these things here on Orble?
Again, just some thoughts and opinions. You don't have to agree.
Gene
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
This is just Orble, a site for normal human beings to post articles-- not the megalomaniacal, greed-driven U.S. banking and financial industry.
Well, except maybe for David. hahahahahaha!!
Was that funny, Doug P.?
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
those Blogger.com Terms Of Service look pretty reasonable
Our content policies play an important role in maintaining a Googley experience for you, the users. Please respect these guidelines. From time to time, we may change our content policies so please check back here.
PORNOGRAPHY AND OBSCENITY:
Pornography and Obscenity: Image and video content that contains nudity, sexually graphic material, or material that is otherwise deemed explicit by Google should be made private. Otherwise, we may put such content behind an interstitial.
Pedophilia, Incest and Bestiality: Users may not publish written, image or video content that promotes pedophilia, incest and bestiality.
Commercial Pornography: We do not allow content that exists for the primary purpose of monetizing porn content or driving traffic to a monetized pornography site.
Child Pornography: Google has a zero-tolerance policy against child pornography, and we will terminate and report to the appropriate authorities any user who publishes or distributes child pornography.
HATEFUL CONTENT: Users may not publish material that promotes hate toward groups based on race or ethnic origin, religion, disability, gender, age, veteran status, and sexual orientation/gender identity.
VIOLENT CONTENT: Users may not publish direct threats of violence against any person or group of people.
COPYRIGHT: It is our policy to respond to clear notices of alleged copyright infringement. More information about our copyright procedures can be found here.
PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION: We do not allow the unauthorized publishing of people's private and confidential information, such as credit card numbers, Social Security Numbers, and driver's and other license numbers.
IMPERSONATION: We do not allow impersonation of others through our services in a manner that is intended to or does mislead or confuse others.
UNLAWFUL USE OF SERVICES: Our products and services should not be used for unlawful purposes or for promotion of dangerous and illegal activities. Your account may be terminated and you may be reported to the appropriate authorities.
SPAM, MALICIOUS CODES AND VIRUSES: We do not allow spamming or transmitting malware and viruses.
http://www.blogger.com/terms.g
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
I vote that Morgan uses her own finances to do this, and employs people to help her do this, should that be necessary.
In this way, Morgan will gain an understanding of Orble & Jon’s stance on the matter, and how Orble’s Rules & Regulations are pretty clear to people with a grasp on what simplicity is. And the diffculties inherent in running a net-based business. Morgan will have to deal with people who don’t agree with her rules & regulations, like Orble, Jon and Orble bloggers have to deal with her petty grievances. Morgan will soon come to realise that there are a lot of people on her blogsite who don’t have a job, and her blogsite is their life. Being busy herself now, running a blogsite, when Morgan wakes up and checks her email complaints folder, Morgan will have to explain why she doesn’t give an immediate response to certain complaints from people without lives outside the blogosphere, and justify why she’s running it the way she does, and why complaints from individual members or small groups are not going to force her to change her rules & regulations. And why, due to having a job and running a business, she can't give an immediate response, regardless of how upset they are, and have been since not receiving an immediate response when the net can facilitate immediate and instant
resolutiongratification to those who seek it. And this goes to the heart of the matter. We expect immediacy because the net makes that possible. Or have we all been conned? Is the net just a tool that fosters impatience and frustrates our need for instant gratification? It promises so much, yet fails to deliver on so many occasions.I vote for the following propositions:
Adults who know what is offensive and don’t need anyone to explain simple rules in a complex manner, can just continue to blog on Orble under its current guidelines.
They can even go to Orble’s FAQ section and read the following:
There are no restrictions on content as long as you do not post anything offensive, racist, or pornographic. Exactly what offensive means is hard to define but we reserve the right to remove any content we think may offend people. In practice this has only happened a couple of times and we take a very liberal stance.
Expletives are okay, but in moderation. If a post contains adult content it should be flagged as "Mature".
Adults who are confused about the matter and need the matter made more complex, can continue to write posts on the writers’ forum, get answers from Jon & Orble about why the rules are simple, and continue to claim confusion and lack of resolution, and total innocence. Or leave, and go to other websites where the rules suit them better. Unless of course they choose to stay in the hope the rules will change so others will leave.
Voting for this proposition will not guarantee Karma Points.
And herein lies the major problem with this post. Morgan’s premise:
I wasn’t aware Orble was all about Karma Points. I guess Karma Points and popularity, and rising through the most popular writer ranks are important to some (Hence, why Karma Points is put in bold font and constantly referred to by Morgan), but I thought how Orble marketed themselves was pretty clear on the About Orble page:
Vote 1. Grow up. Accept the rules as they stand. Stop pretending you don’t understand them. And stop wasting people’s time with petty, personal grievances based upon Karma Points and popularity.
Apart from Jon’s attempt to explain the situation, which seemingly fell on deaf ears, the most sensible comments on this post came from Lilla:
This post (so far) sounds to me, like a bunch of children who cant trust themselves to judge when nudity is offensive and when it is PG!!! Or when it is safe to push the delete button if someone is in your face on your post. It sounds like asking the adults of the kindergarten to inforce more Orwellian rules, why?
I mean this is ludicrous, its like saying this and this person disagrees with my opinion and now I need someone to come in here make them see it my way, because we cant agree. I mean MOVE ON, find others who do agree with you (as you have) and have a party (as you do)... why try and make us all suffer your fates and enemies?
Vote 2. For the right to have someone hold your hand while you do wee-wees.
Comment by Doug Pollard
Current Affairs
Rainbow Reporter
Comment by Tracy
Movies and Life
Comment by Two Guys Sports
Baseball Slate
Blogging in America
Reviews R Us
I sort of take issue with this statement. I do not know the financial state of Jon's business, and can only deal in a hypothetical, but here we go.
Let's do a little math.
There are 6,158 blogs according to the home page. Let's say 1/3 of them are active. That is 2052.6 active blogs. That is a modest statement, I don't think it is too much of a stretch.
Now in my FIRST six months I have made $100 in AdSense. Now those that have been here longer have probably established a bit more search engine traffic than I have so probably average a little higher than $100 per six months. However we will go to the modest side again and put the average at $75 per six months.
That equal $153,000 per six months. This number is important because that is the 50% that writers get. This means that Orble also gets that amount.
Now the home page also lists 139,876 posts. We will stay on the modest side and say half of those are on inactive sites - 69,938. Now those blogs might be inactive, but search engine traffic doesn't just stop. Now even though that is half of all the posts on Orble lets say they pull just a third of what the active pages do - $51,000.
Doing the math we are now sitting at $204,000. Again these are most likely extremely modest totals.
Now I am sorry to the two people I am about to mention by name, but they do figure into the equation prominently. Charles and Cibbuano sit atop the Individual Readers list all the time thanks to working very hard and being here a really long time. They are paid employees. Their AdSense goes 100% to Orble. Those 31,000 plus readers daily have to be producing a higher amount of AdSense clicks than in the above modest statements. Being as such, I don't think it would be a stretch to say those two sites alone with that much traffic pull in 1/4 of what the rest of the site does - $51,000.
Now we sit at $255,000 - per six months - $510,000 per year.
So Jon, if you are paying well enough that it would cost more than Orble makes to employ someone(s) to handle looking over the content to keep people in line - I would like to kindly ask you for an application and tell you I will even take a pay cut from that amount.
Respectfully yours,
Gene
Comment by Two Guys Sports
Baseball Slate
Blogging in America
Reviews R Us
I think the list would be a bit longer than David. lol
Also as for the "we are adults, we can police ourselves" comments. . . well yes, we have seen how well some can do just that. I think we are giving some people a wee bit too much credit in the "adult" referencing area.
Gene
Comment by Mister Smith
MRS SMITH
READ THIS
SISTERS IN CRIME
Comment by Mister Smith
MRS SMITH
READ THIS
SISTERS IN CRIME
Should have realized you are American - Australia's population is tiny compared to yours. This is why success in America=riches!
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
It's okay. I take no offence whatsoever at what D. Armenta writes about me. But be on the lookout for a personal hate post mentioning her name in the title and content, and mocking her in the display image.
If she doesn't like it, I will be writing a post on the writers' forum about the thickness and thinness of skin. And how Orble need to address such issues. And replace Karma Points with Skins. I will be basing this post on extensive Google research into skin (Okay, a quick Google and an even quicker cut & paste) and various comments bloggers have made on their posts about skin. That will be conditional on the comments still being on the posts, because I don't save posts. I'm not that paranoid. Yet.
Skins will work like this. If you get someone to bite, you get one Skin Point. If you get them to bite twice, you get two Skin Points. If your post goes on for pages and pages, you get to put a non-offensive Foreskin icon on your blog. If you find the mere mention of the word foreskin offensive, you have the right to choose your own skin image icon. If living in the virtual world appeals you to, cosmetic breast skin is for you. If you divide your time between the real world and the virtual world, you can choose to have one real breast and one cosmetic breast as your icon. If you upset someone overseas enough to post a post about your post, you get to have an additional icon on your blog. A Redskin icon.
If Doug wasn't on Orble, I think this would work. But I anticipate him saying get rid of Skins altogether. He'll rightly argue that Skins are just Karma by another name. Although I would support Doug on this one, and suggest that we all stop writing posts on our own blogs and just meet on the daily writers' forum posts. That way personal Karma Points & Skins won't matter. We could form a true community of writers on the writers' forum. Where no-one cares about Karma Points or Skins, but just writes about writing and any subject whatsoever, and do justice to the fact that Orble was originally set up as a writers' site in the hope that it would develop into a community of writers. A true community of writers who all agreed that to some Karma means what goes around comes around, to others it means an indication of popularity, to others it means a Lenny Kravitz song, to others it means a pagan concept on grace, to the illiterate writer it sounds like Calmer and means the onset of peace and harmony. Etc, etc.
The beauty of this idea of all us writers congreating on the writers' forum page is that new people coming onto Orble would see nothing on the home page that could be deemed offensive, because there would be nothing on the home page at all. Every Orble Blogger would be happily, peacfully and hamoniously involved in the Orble Community of writers on the Writers' Forum. To paraphrase Jon's paraphrasing of Martin Luther Kings I have a dream staement, We can always hope against hope itself.
As to your offer to read every post on Orlbe and get paid for it? Jon, I'll do it for less than Gene.
Comment by Doug Pollard
Current Affairs
Rainbow Reporter
Incidentally, I've yet to see a cent from Orble, not that it matters to me.
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
For a lot of us, it costs us to have an Orble Blog. Our phone lines and internet a/c's. And what we do to pay for both.
But once our internet connection is established and payed for, it costs us nothing to have a domain or a blogsite on Orble. They pay for all that, and set it all up for us. All we have to do is log on and click create a blog.
And for a lot of us, it's a hobby we enjoy. It's not our principal source of income. Or our life.
That tends to get lost a bit.
But in all fairness to people who treat the internet or Oble as their life? Living in the real world is not that appealing. It involves sacrifice.
It means sitting here like I do making statements about sacrifice without making any sacrifices.
See, I can be an expert on something just as much as other bloggers.
I'm enjoying this post so much, I'm worried about my Karma Points on my blog.
What if I get trapped on this post for the rest of my Orble sentient life?
I'm not worried about abortion. It's a bit late for that. Euthenasia worries me a bit. What if Orble pull the plug?
Euthenasia is an interesting subject from a phonetical angle. It always sounds like Youths in Asia. And how many people write posts about the injustices young Asians suffer in places like Africa? Africa is an Asian country isn't it? Or is it an Asian continent?
Here in Adelaide we just had a murder. According to the media, it is alleged that some Sudanese youths murdered a Sudanese youth. I was outraged by the media reports. How dare they call these youths Sudanese. They are Australian youths, who happen to have African ancestral heritage and origins. Everyone living in Australia is an Australian.
It's why we haven't had an aboriginal Prime Minister and the US hasn't had a native American President. What is more important is that immigrants are treated equally. And the original inhabitants of the land are forgotten in the euphoria of the son of an immigrant being elected president as a victory for the downtrodden and oppressed minorities that do live here and never give the original inhabitants a second thought.
If a native American Indian was elected US President, I would probably join in the euphoria. But I wonder about people's ability to think euphorically outside the square.
They never seem to take every angle into consideration. They seem to just go, well this is a victory for black people. To me it is another non-victory for Red people. Thank God the US elections weren't about race or the colour of your skin but about the integrity of your character. Did Obama mention the native Americans once in his victory speech? The great black historian, who has done nothing more than what the great white historians and orators have done. Swept the Red Trash under the carpet.
People bang on about history being distorted. Yet the same people are now rejoicing in this new distortion of history.
Shit, I'm not even American, but I see so many people jumping on the black Afro American bandwagon with Obama being elected, and yet for all of their knowledge of history, not once do they mention the injustices dished out to the native Americans.
Let's all just watch John Wayne movies, and celebrate celebrity?
Comment by Lilla
From The Home Front
Enviro Warrior
Dream Herald
Esoteric Bookshop
I would add another skin to Davids list, in that any votes earned through sheer wordsmithing talent, honest journalistic research/philosophic questioning, or poetic effort, be shown as a much coveted grazed skin icon, for the efffort it took to work at it.
Comment by Janet Collins
Acceptable Etiquette
The Social Critic
Janet Collins Blog
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
I want my hate post--you promised.
I know you're jealous of my golf handicap..spew it out!!
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
YEAH!!!
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Good question. I thought it was about offensive content. But apparently it's really Is Obama's election meaningless because he is black and not native American? Of course had he actually been native American, the question would be Is Obama's election meaningless because he is native American and not black?
First we heard that Obama was not white enough. Then we heard he was not black enough. Now apparently his biggest problem is that he is not red at all.
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
Okay, sorry. Couldn't resist.
I'm in Coventry for saying the "F" word in stars on my last post andfor naming names in an attempt to make peace, so I'm feeling feisty.
So, about the "offensive" thing...what did we decide?
Comment by Two Guys Sports
Baseball Slate
Blogging in America
Reviews R Us
Barack Obama is actually a small part Cherokee. For those about to say he isn't green either, he also has Irish ancestry.
Gene
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
D- what you got told off for saying the F word? By who?
p.s you can name me whenever you want. Whether to make peace or criticise something I say. If I piss you off you can tell me to F off and call me an idiot. Tell me where it is I am going wrong. Where I draw the line is when nasty and baseless things are said without reference to anything in particular.
e.g "RubySoho, the womb of death...devoid of humanity" and
"it is ye who has given ThoughtZone its secular, bigoted agenda"
and my personal favourite- when people (well ok it's just two but I won't name names), call me a liar but cannot name a single instance where I have actually lied.
Can you see a difference? I can. And its massive.
As to what we have decided. Nothing as usual.
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
thanks for the comic relief, i understand you and Nevar are struggling to discuss the inconsistancy of Orble admin on this particular post (an issue i have seen you question on other posts) just because i wrote this one
ill draw your attention back to Nevar's post on basically the same topic
David
Which perplexed me a bit, considering the posts which weren't relegated to Mature Content status. And yet didn't perplex me at all. It vindicated my stance on the whole matter. A crucifix dildo is not considered mature content? Or offensive?
you seemed to be saying that you didnt understand the thinking behind admin decisions, and because you dont understand you apply a hit and miss type philiosophy to posting in an effort to discover the boundaries
you came to no real conclusions about what the best solution would be but you expressed some concern about the inconsistant ways in which the rules were applied
Damo
I do not like to tell people their job but if they do not have a clue then spelling out is the only way.
Katyzzz
i dont think it is just me that is confused by the current rules and how they are applied . . . i know your instinct is to mock me and oppose anything i say, and these instincts are largely too tempting to deny, but i think you know full well i am not the only one wondering why admin are so heavy-handed with some things and completely oblivious to others
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
You write:
Orble writes:
I wrote:
At the end of the day, this::
should have been a question directed to Orble Admin, not made into a post.
Or in fairness to you, should have been the entire post. It's succinct and to the point. And addresses one problem at a time, not a multitude of them.
At times, the real world is no different to the virtual world. Try and get a straight answer out of managers or bosses at any workplace, and you end up in a series of meaningless diatribes, and nothing much of any value gets achieved. Certainly not change for the better. If anything, things get changed in the opposite direction.
My temptation is to mock the system. One I frequently give in to. And to mock the brown-nosing, arse-licking sycophants in the system (most of whom are either already managers or heading for management, because they don't mock the system). The system works for them. They believe in it. And its philosophies. (Joseph Heller and various novelists have made a fortune out of mocking the system).
I had a convo with a friend yesterday. She said, "people's biggest fear is change." (She's a manager now. Boy, I wonder where she learnt that erroneous philosophy. At a management conference?). I don't buy it. I don't believe one of people's biggest fears is change any more than I beleive flying is. People fear death. Dying in a plane crash, not flying. I worry (with mild concern) that people get indoctrinated to believe bullshit cliches like that. I don't like change for the worse. I'm cynical that change won't go through fifty cycles until people realise they shouldn't have changed anything in the first instance. Look at education. THe govt are now talking about going back to teaching in a way a few years ago they had to change, because changes to education have produced so many illiterate and innumerate people. So now they want to change it back to what they changed it from? Boy that's sensible. How long did it take them to work that one out? But they'll still do it under the banner of change. And not admit the changes they made initially are the cause of the problem. They'll still champion change and make statements at conferences like, 'Change is people's biggest fear.' Right now they're out there indoctrinating the illiterate and innumerate. Making them read Dale Carnegie books.
At the end of the day, I take a Catch-22 approach to mocking the system and those taken up by it. Just point out how absurd it all is, and get a laugh out of it, rather than go insane trying to change it. I see a lot of people taking a Fight-Club approach. But only their alter ego fights. The real person behind the alter ego doesn't.
If you have a problem with Orble & Admin, take it up directly with them. Otherwise you'll end up with an Oprah/Springer style post like this every time.
I'll quote myself again. There's far too much quoting of others happening already.
If I was seriously concerned about Orble altering my posts? I'd write to Orble about it. But I'm not. If I was seriously concerned about personal attacks? I'd write to Orble about them. But I'm not. I'll make a fleeting reference to such things on my own blog, and that's about it.
The bottom line to it all is this:
You sign an agreement regarding Orble's rules. It's a pretty simple solution. If you don't like their rules, don't agree to them. And don't blog on Orble. It's like being at a job with a workplace agreement you signed and six months later saying you don't agree with it. Legally, you don't have a leg to stand on, as they say.
Oh, I know. A union of Orble reps?
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
thanks for constructing a thoughtful response
the Writers Forum is designed for users to bring up problems with the site and discuss them, this is the channel admin advises you to use if you want to speak to them
posts to the Writers Forum do not appear on homepage and do not earn any revenue, they are the most appopriate way to inform admin of technical and procedural difficulties
i can appreciate your opinion and can see you are not alone with this particular sentiment . . . but you will forgive me if i just think it sounds like something Pauline Hanson would say to asian immigrants "go back to your own country"
i dont expect us to see eye to eye on this, i just think you are entitled to an explanation when your posts are taken down or labelled "Mature", and the process should be consistant and out in the open
i respect your right to disagree, this is afterall a forum, and there is bound to be a broad spectrum of views
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
You're very selective when you quote someone.
I also added:
Then you go on to justify writing a post about the matter to me ???
Maybe have a read of Jon's comment again, unless of course you just love discussing this sort of stuff.
My current view is that I know one when I see one and when I do they get deleted.
I would also consider a specific channel through which complaints can be made. A dedicated email address perhaps.
Have a really good read of this part of Jon's comment:
Then tell Jon he is acting like Pauline Hanson.
My view is you are only looking for the answers that suit you, not the answers you were given.
If you are going to act all innocent and naive about this, and quote people left right and centre, how about quoting your own gleeful, rejoicing comments about inviting Butterfly7 to join Orble, on her arrival, quote her first post in its entirety, (and the comments on it) and then explain to everyone how she came to join Orble with the intention of speaking to anyone but Damo and not putting up with "his shit."
I'm sure somone has saved the post somehwere. Saving posts seems to be quite popular with some bloggers. I guess they keep them for when they print out their virtual certificates as virtual lawyers to practice virtual law. Ergonomic PC-Station-Chair-With-Armrests Lawyer.
Inferring someone has the racist mentality of Pauline Hanson is offensive. I hope everyone reads that comment of yours on this post of yours about offensive comments.
I'll quote you, and people can read it again:
Your approach is, Forgive me in advance, which I'm certain you'll do, *bats eyelids, sharpens teeth* but your statement is as racist as something Pauline Hanson would say.
Comparing a person to Pauline Hanson is not the smartest thing you could do when you're trying to get people to take your grievances about offensive comments seriously.
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Is that really your strongest case? Why don't you go trawling through the multitude of comments and posts that poor Damo the Persecuted has written which savage other writers and then maybe you will see why someone had the foresight to tell him straight off the bat that they wouldn't put up with it? Stop acting like he is some sort of innocent victim. He gives far, far worse than he has ever gotten.
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
Morgan is the one championing the rights to not be offensive. While she offends people by comparing them to Pauline Hanson.
What's Morgan's strongest case?
That we should all pretend the Butterfly7 post didn't happen, because it exposes Morgan?
Where is that post btw? Did Orble remove it? Did Orble consider it offensive?
And why are you answering for Morgan?
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
I'm not sure what you mean by this:
That we should all pretend the Butterfly7 post didn't happen, because it exposes Morgan?
What does it expose Morgan for? She didn't write the post. Nor did she write an offensive comment on the post. Was the post offensive simply because it asked Damo not to bother visiting the blog? How on earth is that considered offensive? Don't bother visiting my blog. I have read your stuff and I don't want you here. Big deal.
Damo has written entire posts where he calls other writers liars, gutless, a-moral, bigots, frauds, hate mongers, the list goes on and on and one person writes a post saying "I won't put up with your shit Damo" and suddenly Orble is in a tither.
Oh no, I have mentioned Damo's name. Several times. Does this now qualify as a "hate comment"? Get a grip.
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
well i guess at least we know a couple of things that you consider to be offensive
1) comparing the words people use with things Pauline Hanson has said
2) the use of Damo's name in any post
i saw you wrote a post with my name in the title yesterday (now removed) so i can only presume the second rule would apply to Damo exclusively and not extend to any of the other users
im sure nobody wants me writing the rules any more than they want you to, perhaps someone like Jon could take on board all these suggestions and come up with something impartial
Comment by Mister Smith
MRS SMITH
READ THIS
SISTERS IN CRIME
Comment by D. Armenta
The Florida Keys and Everglades
The Black Sheep Chronicles
What constitutes bad manners?
The male mystique
Debate Fan
L.A.M.P.
Comment by Morgan Bell
Science News
Deep Pencil
Business News
Movie Train
Artist Quirk
im sure Jon has more than enough info here now if he wants it
if noone has anything further to say lets get back to it . . .
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
Really? I saw Google have a post about you. They mentioned your name in an aritcle.
Get over yourself. Not everything with the word Morgan in it is about you.
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Comment by alt_ed
Alted Opinion
ArtCombat
The Inner Saintdom
N'Orble for the psycho-liberal-sperm murderers and B'Orble for the right-wing Christian nutters!
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Or failing that, fall to the ground spluttering in laughter?
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
Comment by Doug Pollard
Current Affairs
Rainbow Reporter
Comment by Anonymous
Really Long Link
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by Anonymous
Really Long Link
Comment by Anonymous
So, when we make a post that gets deleted or moved, its a safe bet that the line has been bumped or crossed, and we learn from it.
Really Long Link
Comment by Anonymous
Comment by Anonymous
I agree with katyzzz that erotica should be censored from orble, heck I probably mean it further than most of you other people here. Not in the name of censorship but in the name of sanity, seriously, when communities start going after erotica in the least it ends up opening floodgates for the rest, if posting about some guy having sex ith a cow attracts traffic it will just lead to copycats, so on and so forth.
I'm not speaking based on opinion, I'm speaking based on experience.
Really Long Link
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
Would you sum up the purpose of this litany of quotes, please.
Oh, why are you posting this anonymously?
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Yeah, Anon, that will fix our current problems. Dredge up an old Orble war that most people here now wont remember. I expected to find a comment of my own on that post, but I realized - that was from the era where I never bloodied my sword.
Orble has come a long way since then. We now have family friendly filter. I agree with some people who say to Katyzzz that she comes off as promoting ignorance - (Im sorry honey, but you know that just because you dont like it, doesnt mean someone else wont. I dont consider porn as pollution) I use mature content and family friendly filters, I have had people describe my writing as erotica when thats not what I intended, but I didnt take offense.
My favourite blog of all, was Ravens 'Sleezers world' because it was decidedly adult, WITHOUT being pornographic. So, Im with Raven here - whats the purpose to dreging up this war Anon? What are you trying to achieve? Are rampant idiots ignoring the filters? Because if they are, the whole site can be in serious trouble, which none of us want. In the past, orble wars have boiled down just because we were getting scared of losing orble itself.
Comment by Ann 1
Bloganymity
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Comment by Nevar
Is Why
I wonder if that will help it go away?
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Comment by RubySoho
Music Zone
Thought Zone
Comment by Lady Henrietta Muddling
Potter in a Harry
That's the funniest comment you've ever posted.
You should chill more often.
Comment by alt_ed
Alted Opinion
ArtCombat
The Inner Saintdom
Why, where have you been hiding me lady?
Um seriously Dave, I don't think I've ever come across a person screaming out for gender realignment surgery more so than yourself.
Comment by Waysouth
Romantic Writer
Given To Gaming
Waysouth
Spanish Honduras
I think that is why a lot of the drama cools off when school is in session. Keep those little monsters busy.
Comment by OrbleWriter
I believe my comments provide the Orble community with valid and factual information. And provide an alternate point of view, that is expressed amicably and addresses the point NOT the person.
My Comment One:
Telstra cannot delete phone users or Internet subscribers who seek legal action against it anymore than a blog site can do the same.
The difference is though, we don't pay Orble for this service - it is free! That means, unfortunately, they are well within their right to manage the site as they see fit. Maybe if Orble introduced a premium blogging subscription, where users had to pay for their own domain registration, hosting fees etc then it would be different.
This is why I Telstra don't just suspend the accounts of people who commence legal action against them - they're paying customers.
OrbleWriter
Damo Reply:
Here is the link that goes to a blank page.
Really Long Link
This the same method used to attack David before he was purged from Orble.
So I am not going to even bother debating this person until they use their real login instead of hiding behind their cowardly cloak of anonymity.
My Comment Two:
Damo,
My name is Even Faux, and I am a writer on Orble. I simply do not wish to comment on these threads under my Orble username as I do not wish to add my karma points.
OrbleWriter is NOT a register Orble account. It's just something I typed into the 'Name or Orble Tag' box.
With regards to my comment, I stand by what I have said. And that is the situations that you and others have likened Orble to do not reflect the true nature of the Orble site.
Orble is a free service, and one that Orble are pretty much able to do what they like with. If we we're 'employed' by Orble, it would be different... they would be required to adhere to a number of workplace laws etc.
Similarly, if Orble were a video store again, different rules and regulations would apply.
In this instance though, Orble is simply a free service where writers are free to come and go as they please. I certainly believe Orble would benefit from a more clear set of Guidelines; though I am also aware that many members oppose this.
With regards to Nevar's suggestion of a 'Three Strike Rule' this was actual bought up in the writers forum in a post called Revision & Enforcement (November 2008)
On that post, Nevar did not once mention his support for any part of the suggested changes; not even the 'Three Strike Rule'.
What I did find shocking though, was Nevar's reply to a comment by alted -
N'Orble for the psycho-liberal-sperm murderers and B'Orble for the right-wing Christian nutters!
Nevar -
Damo Reply:
There is no such writer on Orble so his comments have been deleted.
A copy of which has been emailed as permanent record
Debate over.
Comment Three:
Damo,
Even Faux is my real name, the name I was given at birth. If you would like my telephone number, address or any other verification then I would happily email it to you.
Unfortunately, by deleting my comments it seems you are trying to silence me from providing the Orble community with valid and factual information.
I will repost my former comments below, and see what action you take. If they are removed then so be it, however it will only reflect negatively on you and this post - the bias of not allowing civilised discussion to occur.